April 22nd, 2008
by
Liz Henry
Here is a quick summary of the wild and wooly LJ throwdown today in the Feminist SF blogosphere which some call Gropergate and some call the Open Source Boob Grab.
I would like to unfold it before you as I experienced it:
First, I saw Rachel Manija’s post. I had to leave for work, so didn’t have time to read further or to do more than rant briefly in outrage that all we DON’T need in SF fandom is more encouragement for creepy-grope-culture and pressure for women to commoditize themselves for the benefit of men.
I thought about it all day from the little information I had. I thought about gay & lesbian and queer hanky codes to indicate specific detail about sexual preferences in gay bars, sex parties, and cruising grounds. I thought about the things that signify femininity, and gender in general. I thought over particularly painful and haunting incidents of sexual harassment I have experienced. I thought about doing sex work and what it taught me. I went “GRRRRR” big time and proposed that we ask MEN at cons to wear buttons that proclaim “Groper”, “Sexist”, “Ogler”, “Creep” and “Potential Rapist”. Make them identify, not us.
In a science fiction context, I thought certainly of the WorldCon boob grab perpetrated by Harlan Ellison. I thought of the girl I met at last year’s ConQuest who wore a button saying “I’m only 14, don’t even think about it” and was heartened yet saddened by what it implied. I thought of the extreme harassment and personal assault I have experienced in role-playing games with friends and at cons.
Then, just now, I read mystickeeper’s short summary. I learned that the original poster called this plan the “Open Source Boob Project”. Before I even finished the first screen of her entry, I was snorting fire because I love the open source movement and philosophy and think it’s a beautiful thing. I love the public domain, and copyleft, and Creative Commons. I question many mainstream ideas about private property and ownership, and intellectual property. And, I am involved with several organizations that support and foster the participation of women in open source. It did NOT make me happy to think of the words “women in open source” taking on a new meaning — the meaning that women’s bodies are privately owned property (owned by themselves, or their significant others) who should “open source” their bodies.
I then sat down to pound furiously upon my keyboard to give my ranty thoughts & reactions a good, quick, unedited ranty bloggity outlet.
THEN after I went through that whole nostril-flaring thought chain, I followed the link to the original poster’s journal entry. He had updated it and closed comments after over 1000 comments. People are surely still going to be emailing him for days, weeks, months. He apologized, and said that he realized now that it only made sense in context, with a group of people who knew each other and who thought it fun — In my opinion, in his mind it was like the hanky code in a gay bar, in the context it was in. And his apology reads as sincere and thoughtful to me. It doesn’t erase the wrong of it. But, I give him credit for making an attempt.
And the chances that the Project would get fucked up, making con spaces more amenable to hordes of stalkers and mouthbreathers who will grope and maul women, are pretty damn big. Hell, it’s already made women feel less safe by me mentioning it, and that makes me feel like shit. As it should.
Further, he says,
And while that’s not the way it happened – at least from the perspective of the folks who participated …[whiny bit deleted, out of mercy]
…It doesn’t matter.
I agree with that 100%. That is a decent apology, especially coming so quickly.
THEN I read misia’s hilarious, perfect, beautiful, post: A Modest Proposal. It healed my soul, as did the many great comments. Misia proposes the Open Source Swift Kick to the Balls Project (OSSKBP). Here is the short version, but go read her whole post. It’s a treat.
1. Men who would like to be asked for permission before a woman administers one or more swift kicks to their balls shall wear the offical OSSKBP “Ask First Pin” at all times. This is a black lapel pin with a lavender question mark on it.
2. Men who do not wish to be kicked in the balls at all must wear a large visible official “No Kicks, Thanks” badge at all times, including when swimming, showering, and sleeping. They may also wish to avoid areas where large numbers of women are present, particularly at night. Some men may also wish to invest in assertiveness training…
Ha!!!
Many people chimed in with funny, apt comments: pantryslut with
“And always remember, we are creating a better, more honest world with this project. By being open about our desire to kick men in the balls, instead of shamefully hiding our pure, innocent, harmless feelings.
and vito_excalibur:
Why, the validation they will get from knowing that we find their testicles a worthy target will be a pure source of satisfaction and joy!
If you don’t get it they are mocking the things that guys say, Nice Guys who want women to be “liberated” about their sexuality with the agenda of getting some free pussy.
There is another lovely extended parody from roseembolism: “In this moment, all of the societal restrictions had fallen away, and we discovered an eBay-like need: We liked to express the desire to kick him inna crotch, and he liked the compliment of being noticed.” And there is GREAT in depth discussion in the post and comments inthe-red-shoes‘ journal. Oh, there’s so much. I can’t link to it all! The responses keep coming, with infinite depth. Can’t! Stop! Reading! Awesome! Internet! Naamen, you rock!
DAMN! This is some privileged BULLSHIT! This is disgusting! This the the illusion of endorsing open sexuality by opening up bodies that aren’t your own for touch! This is a way for you to get your rocks off groping womyn in public and pretending to be deep! This is enforcing the belief that womyn are public property!
Let me say it loud so thast it might -might- penetrate your skull:
WOMYN’S BODIES ARE NOT A PUBLIC SPACE!
The beauty of saoba’s declaration filled me with happiness:
“I am a person, actual and whole. I am not a walking interactive art installation for random passersby. I choose clothing to please myself, based on my own intent and the event I am attending.
I am not an ambulatory therapy object. I am not public property. ” – saoba
You may also enjoy coffeeandink’s fierce thoughts on the subject. I’d like to go digging through all the threads and find her comments as I am sure they are worth the hunt. If you do, please link that up in comments below. She disagrees that the dude’s apology is worth a damn. Actually I agree with her but I am a little easier on his sorry ass since I think about 99% of blogging dudes would have not even got as far as he did into actual thought, and that kind of CR work goes slow. I think when Scalzi told him he was wrong he listened… nevermind what all those chicks say… ;-)
The point I am winding up to, though, is that it is US who did the right thing here, all the people mostly women but some men, who went furiously type type typing immediately to their blogs and LJs and make the freaking internet EXPLODE with mockery, outrage, anger, orneriness, analysis, questioning, and criticism. THAT’S how it’s supposed to work! The feminist blogosphere is swift and fierce! It lays out the issues, it gets its hands dirty, it disagrees and shouts and does it right. Go team! What we all did, and the way this can work, is to head off shitty ideas at the pass. Obviously, not by forbidding anyone to flirt in any context, ever. But, by public discussion and debate. Thank you to everyone who participated in the Great Denial of the Boob Grab. I take heart from it, immensely so.
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- More blogging by
Liz Henry at
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Filed under FSF Activism, activism, fandom, geek sexism | Comments (64)
Oh, goodness, just came across this comment from the original theferret dude. I take it back about the little head-pat at him for effort.
“And your response seems to come from a personal mindset of, “My body is something so special to me that only people I have firmly vetted and talked to and invested in should be allowed to touch those areas.” Which is fine. It’s a way of saying, “I only want people I find attractive and/or nice to want me,” which is in fact the prevalent societal attitude.
But that also involves an interview process, and the attitude that your body is a vested space that is, by nature, exclusive. That’s fine. But that doesn’t mean it’s the only way to be, or that it’s always healthy.”
WTFOMGBBQ…
Also theferret’s and many other men’s assumption that I or other women would be AFRAID. No… I’d be annoyed and angry with them. I’d go report them to the con organizers and I’d get them thrown the hell out.
Oh well if you girlys are AFRAID or “triggered” then… I guess we shouldn’t do it. That is a lot of the guys’ Nice Guy line and I don’t buy into it one little bit.
Read this thread, especially the stuff from emmycantbemeeko.
Er, this is the same guy who justified men pestering women for sex because “sometimes it works”? [Update: Yes, it is: June 2005, TheFerrett on how women are to blame for men pestering them for sex: Do-Be-Do-Me-Do and his followup post The Correlary, Which I Cannot Spell Without A Spell-Checker.]
I cannot be bothered to go hunt back through all of The Ferrett’s journal posts to find that one[Actually, it turned out all I had to do was google on the correct spelling of his online handle...], but true’s god, Liz, this guy has been around, being geekily obnoxious about women, for years. His “apology” doesn’t mean a damn thing except that he’s tired of getting hassle about this particular instance.He apologized, and said that he realized now that it only made sense in context, with a group of people who knew each other and who thought it fun
I’m less convinced about this. At the first con, he (and some of the other participants) said in the comments that they were approaching strangers, seemingly based on what they were wearing.
More worryingly, the idea’s now out there. The original group might have realised (to some extent) the problems with it, but the details will get lost as the idea spreads. I’ll be amazed if totally unconnected groups aren’t seen at future cons asking to feel up women.
When I read that thread I was just…shocked. And my response was: I was following the thread on his journal yesterday. Even though he frames it within the lens of “men could wear buttons and have their breasts/chests touched as well” does not excuse the fact that we live in a partiarchal society where men and women are treated differently. It is “just breasts” and yet it isn’t. He needs to get a fucking clue that he’s simply helping perpetuate the idea that women should be accessible to men (whether they are wearing green OR red buttons). >.3
I also agree that while his apology was sincere, he also uses a lot of Nice Guy ™ tactics which just means he’s clueless. Someone get him a Feminism 101 manual stat.
Jenny:
Eh, if it makes you feel any better, I’m pretty sure the idea was out there already. :/ The point has been made by many that despite the Heinleinesque “brave new world of openness and free boobies” rhetoric, this shit is not in any way new. To begin with, we already had the sixties.
I can’t believe anyone would think that was even remotely acceptable. Especially with how harassment is commonplace in Con culture already. Justifying it? Making it legitimate? Oh God. Like it isn’t hard enough to walk through Orycon or Gencon without having something touched or some lewd comment.
The amount of people who go ‘we just asked‘ is boggling me. They can’t see how the question itself is offensive or harassing. That’s a bit troubling.
I’m really, really glad there’s so much public outcry and dissent about this. Especially amongst female gamers/sci-fi fans/cosplayers/comic book geeks etc.
(Came from Journal Fen)
In my household we both immediately thought that guys should wear buttons that say “yes poke your finger up my ass” or “no please don’t”.
… This has inspired me to articulate something that has bothered me for some time, so I have a long Open Letter to Men Who Are Not Getting Laid that I am drafting. I’m not sure if I should post it. Thinking.
Post it Laura Q…it sounds like it’ll be a good read. :)
Post it Laura Q…it sounds like it’ll be a good read. :)
Seconded.
Oh, and TheFerrett is still whining – on a post without comments enabled so that no one can tell him he’s completely full of shit.
This entire thing just made it onto a major feminist blog: feministing.com
Link at feministing
Hey Tiffany…I see you at feministing.com I’m Xana over there. :)
One comment I liked over there that I haven’t seen picked up much is the predictable consequence of sexual harassment on careers:
CB Potts, 4/23
… and also in the file of amazing parodies and responses: the Open Source African Hair Project
Hi Xana!
I found this blog via the JournalFen community. And then back to Feministing via here. LOL, the Internet. Thanks for posting it was picked up.
I’m really glad it got posted and commented about in a major way. I’ve been in the Camarilla for 13 years…. lots of Convention Creeps in my long history!
I’m feeling pretty warm and fuzzy about how harshly people are taking this.
What really bothered me about the apology is that it’s framed as being all about our safety. This idea is bad because it might get out of hand; women need protecting. It’s clearly not sunk in that this is bad because it makes us angry, because it’s framing sexuality as being all about the touching of women, because it reinforces the male gaze at the expense of the female gaze, because it’s recycled bullshit from long ago about how women owning themselves is a negative – oh no, those concerns aren’t important at all. But oh yes, we must keep women safe.
Tiffany,
Yeah, I’ve been in con culture for a long time (RPGs, fandom, LARP, SF writing, etc). It’s a bit surreal to see con culture being discussed on a major feminist blog…usually people have no idea what I’m talking about!
You’re Camarilla? I was always a Sabbat Lasombra. :)
“What really bothered me about the apology is that it’s framed as being all about our safety.” -Thene
Yeah, and he doesn’t get why that’s problematic too. It isn’t about men PROTECTING women either. We don’t need protecting (which is sexist in itself) we want an environment where we don’t need any kind of protection or risk of unwanted people touching us.
I am! I’m a storyteller for Requiem and all, talk about a male dominated group. I think I’m one of maybe two or three female DSTs in the UK?
I really miss the Sabbat! They did away with them in Requiem and are poorer for it. I was always Tremere. ;)
I love seeing this develop, it’s so nice to watch it break into something resembling a mainstream. I’m getting the feeling over at Feministing, people don’t realize how small and saturated with men most of the gaming/LARPing/SF/RPG gatherings really are. They seem to think they function like the real world, when it’s far, far different.
Do you have a site or LJ?
Yep, lj is yashakizu. :) Add me if you want!
Yeah, I’m sorry to see the Sabbat is gone as well.
And yeah, very saturated, online and off. I was over at a D&D forum helping a few female friends try to combat some guys who didn’t get why discussing sexism in RPGs was important. I mean…they just don’t get it!
Oh god. Your poor friends :(. It takes some time, but eventually you can slap them around a bit and force them to understand. The only way I really found I could get around being a female roleplayer was to get married… and not have it be an open relationship. Since then the Cam and other places have been a lot better.
Though I have had some gross experiences at the local goth club :(.
(I added you! I’m vulgarcriminal.)
Added!
What strikes me is how juvenile the whole thing is. How old are these people? I’m sure my girl would label him “man-child.” I mean, I like breasts as much as the next man, but what could be easier to see? To obsess over them like a 14 year old boy so that you’re slavering at the thought of fondling some random girls chest suggests some serious immaturity. I’d be embarassed, no matter what vocabulary I dressed it up in.
That’s leaving aside all the other issues of intrusion and so on, of course.
Oh, and “in a nonsexual manner” Pah! I can think of only one instance in my life where I fondled breasts in a nonsexual manner.
Wait, the Sabbat is gone??! What happened to the Sabbat? :(
Rob:
….
Whut?
Trying to capture some of this feminist blogsplosion in a wiki post: Open Source Boob Project
Thanks to jimboboz for pointing out this gem from theferrett’s past journals:
“Unfortunately, I can’t decry the process of “asking repeatedly,” mainly because it’s the only stimuli a lot of women respond to. Frankly, I think any woman who has to be begged fifteen times before she eventually accepts should be drug into the back alleyways and beaten, because her rampant need for a string of pleadings trains the wrong sort of men that no doesn’t mean no. And then we should go beat up the men for good measure. “
Wow. Once again, complete FAIL.
And once again the FAIL is largely due to his inability to recognize that sex is not something that men want and women have.
Only people who fail to see that (at the very least) it is also something that women want and that men have would fail to recognize that taking such women’s “no” at face value is “punishment” enough.
Jeezus.
Thanks to jimboboz for pointing out this gem from theferrett’s past journals:
Ah, my name isn’t jimboboz, it’s Yonmei, and I linked to those two posts of theferrett’s yesterday from this thread.
Oh whoops. jimbob stuck those links in another of my blogs and likely got them from here. And I was out of sync! It was a lot of comments! Sorry, Yonmei!
You know what my biggest problem with this is? In my 43 years of experience, the “status quo” in many situations (like, say, walking down the street) is that many men DO think it’s okay to ask if they can touch my boobs.
Without a button or any context.
And I doubt that this gentleman would enjoy it if I came up to him and said, “I find you very sexually unappealing! May I squeeze your waistflab?”
Yet he thinks it should be okay for him to give me unasked-for feedback about MY attractiveness?
Vito:
What I was trying to express was how peurile he/the whole thing seemed.
Comments like:
“And lo, we touched her breasts – taking turns to put our hands on the creamy tops”
“reached out like zombies trying to break through a door to get to those breasts”
etc. etc. To excitedly ask girl after girl and be so so thrilled at touching a few random breasts struck me as both laughable and pathetic. Grow up. If you want to lose your insecurities, try getting in an adult relationship.
Now explain this one to me, if you’d be so kind:
“uses a lot of Nice Guy ™ tactics”
What does that mean? He’s being dismissed for being a ‘nice guy’? How is that productive?
Rob: Here’s what a Nice Guy ™ is…http://www.heartless-bitches.com/rants/niceguys/ng.shtml
They mean well, but really they’re just passive aggressive sexists.
Rob:
You misunderstand me. I was just unable to refuse the provocation to ask, ok fine: how do you fondle breasts in a nonsexual manner?? :)
V: Oh that!
Late night; a few of us still sitting around the bonfire. This one girl was considering a boob job and was comparison shopping. First she felt up mine. (it was Halloween and a derby party, so I was dressed in drag as a roller derby girl. damn, that was a LOT of shaving) Then she asked to check out my girlfriend’s chest, then asked both of us to compare the three; all through clothes. I couldn’t consider it erotic. Heh, then she told me check out the hostess’s, which is where I stopped, of course, due to that ultimate oxymoron: “common sense.” You can ask me to feel yours, I have a certain implicit permission with my gf (so long as I don’t abuse the privilege), but you don’t actually have the authority to offer anyone else’s.
But that’s the only example I have, and clearly a fluke. (And personally, I thought her breasts were fine, but whatever)
Non-sexual breast touching: Also, breastfeeding. (On my mind at the moment, since my partner is 7 months pregnant.)
Also, the Nice Guy thing: The term is because all these guys who are really not getting into relationships because of things they’re doing, bemoan the fact and describe themselves as “nice guys” and then complain that “women don’t want nice guys”, they only want the hard-edged alpha male guy. The Angry Black Woman did a related post a while back: The Guy I Don’t Like.
TF’s gone on record before as saying about women, “You dressed to get attention, you got it.” He blames rape victims for rape, harassment victims for harassment, thinks men should have a say in abortions, and is now hiding behind his wife, whom he berated for all their marital problems. Not a feminist by a long shot. He’s a Republican hippie, for pete’s sake.
I’m going to get flamed to a crisp for this, but:
There is some validity to “you dressed for attention”, and in the guy’s defense, when I skimmed(admittedly) that stuff I did not read it as blaming rape victims for rape. Take for example the Princess Leia slave girls that one sees at every con. They are deliberately showing off their bodies, and in many cases almost certainly seeking attention and admiration. How are they not?
READ THIS: They are NOT, however, in any was “asking for it.” They do NOT “deserve” harrasment of any sort. It is NOT an open invitation, or even an invitation at all. It is NOT their fault if people ignore limits and boundaries.
They are allowed to dress as they please; in fun, in tribute, for play-acting, to attract attention, or to show off. People like to look good. People like to feel attractive. Nothing wrong with that, we’re social creatures.
But, and here’s my problem, there is a point where a woman’s outrage crosses the line from fully justified to something other, something more like:
“Stop staring at my breast implants!” That feels like hypocrisy to me.
You may argue there is no line. I’m skeptical.
You may argue that a women always has a right to the sanctity of her body, should never be objectified, and no harassment is ever justified. Again, I’ll grant you all that.
Still, I saw a young lady in the grocery store once. She was wearing Daisy Duke shorts, high heeled sandals(I din’t even know those existed), either a push-up bra and/or augmentation (I suspect, since Asians typically don’t support so much bosom) and a tight tanktop that read, “Why can’t men think with brains?” If that wasn’t meant to be ironic, then you have a girl sexied up as hard as she could preemptively blaming men for being attracted.
Wait. That’s it. I think that’s it. You can blame a man for his BEHAVIOR after being attracted, but you can’t blame him for BEING attracted. That was the issue I had.
Ok, problem solved. I can skip anything else about boundaries, the XKCD “creepiness” factor, how if someone tells you “no” it means you’ve already missed a bunch of cues, and so on. Sorry to waste your time and possibly raise your ire. Writing things helps.
“I’m going to get flamed to a crisp for this, but:
There is some validity to “you dressed for attention”, and in the guy’s defense, when I skimmed(admittedly) that stuff I did not read it as blaming rape victims for rape. Take for example the Princess Leia slave girls that one sees at every con. They are deliberately showing off their bodies, and in many cases almost certainly seeking attention and admiration. How are they not?”
You’re not going to get flamed, but you will calmly be told that you are missing the point. Women are not dressing for YOUR attention or any man’s (or woman’s as the case may sometimes be). My clothing and how I present myself is for my enjoyment and no one else’s unless I want it to be. Maybe all of those Princess Leia’s went “Wow, that’s a really neat bikini! I want to do that costume!” Without any desire or want for men to in any way give them attention.
I really hate when people preface offensive statements with “I’m going to get flamed for this” and “BUT!” and then immediately say something offensive.
How many times do women need to tell men?….we do not exist for you. How we dress, act, talk, write, eat, etc…is NOT FOR YOU! It is NOT FOR ATTENTION! We are autonomous human beings who, if we want to, wear Princess Leia’s freaking slave girl costume without consequence. We do not yet live in an unconsequential world….but for heaven’s sake people need to get it through their heads that we need to stop slut-shaming, blaming women for what they wear, and letting guys like theferrett have a defense for when they are behaving in sexist and misogynistic behavior.
Daomadan, please note that Rob had actually got the point: You can blame a man for his BEHAVIOR after being attracted, but you can’t blame him for BEING attracted.
I know his comment started out apparently sitting up and begging for a fine feminist flame, but by the end of it, he seemed to have figured out himself what was wrong with the beginning of it.
I should have stated that I was using “you” in a general way and not at Rob, more to theferrett’s of the world.
Okay, but this?
But, and here’s my problem, there is a point where a woman’s outrage crosses the line from fully justified to something other, something more like:
“Stop staring at my breast implants!” That feels like hypocrisy to me.
Again, if she doesn’t want YOU to look at her breast-implants, maybe she didn’t do it for YOU. Maybe she have those implants for any other reason that have nothing to do with your particular like or dislike. Society standards, other men or women, whatever.
If she doesn’t want you to look at them, don’t do it. There is nothing hypocritical about that. If she feels uncomfortable because you look at her breasts, you know it wasn’t for you. End of the matter. I don’t know what it’s so hard about it.
Of course you can feel attracted, but always show respect. A woman looking sexy doesn’t mean you have free pass to look at her as an object if she doesn’t want it. How do you treat a man that is considered ’sexy’? If she doesn’t want your attention in that way, maybe she just doesn’t want it.
I think I’m repetitive here, but male privilege is always there.
By the way, for this not to come later to bite me in the ass; whit ‘how you do treat men,’ I didn’t mean you can’t be gay, or you can’t be attracted or show attraction towards men or something like that. I just assumed Rob was heterosexual (maybe I’m wrong, I’m sorry), and I was trying to say that if you can treat someone you don’t feel attraction towards like an person and not like an object, even if they look/dress ’sexy’, maybe it’s not so hard treating someone you find attractive in the same way.
I’m going to get flamed to a crisp for this, but:
I, for one, would rather not see men in feminist spaces preface their dissenting remarks with a prediction that the feminists are going to overreact to them. It’s not cute, it’s not helpful, and it’s not appropriate.
1) I agree with everything said. Appearance is not an excuse for behavior, though there is a tendency for some men to use it as one. There is nothing wrong, however, with attraction itself.
2) He’s quite hetero, for whatever that’s worth. (tho his gf wishes he’d stay away from radfem sites, while at the same time laughing ruefully at his ‘dead on’ summary of the “nice guy” pages)
3)”I’m going to get flamed to a crisp for this”
Yes, yes, like saying “no offense” after something offensive, which has often annoyed me. Or, you could say it was an aknowledgement of position, an implicit apology for being provocative, an acceptance that I’ve asked for any response I get, a plea to keep things civil, and such like. If, that is, you felt like putting a more charitable spin on it, but that’s up to you.
4) Octavia Butler (hey, sci-fi!) Could I get some recommendations? Saw a Butler novel on Herself’s dresser, and it caught my eye. She’d like me to read the “Dawn” novels and give her my opinion. She also said she’s had very uneven luck with author, so opinions wouild be great!
If, that is, you felt like putting a more charitable spin on it
Why on Earth should I extend you any charity? You make posts that are, by your own admission, carelessly worded – about subjects like rape where careless wording becomes particularly ugly. Then you complain that you aren’t being corrected in the way you’d like to be.
You claim other people have their facts wrong when you are the one on the wrong, and a simple Google search before posting would have shown this.
You resent being directed to Feminism 101, while posting as though you’re unaware of the issues covered in Feminism 101.
And now you’re criticizing responses to your post before they’ve even appeared – but if someone criticizes your personally chosen, and actually posted words, they’re being “uncharitable”.
Mods, at what point do you step in with this behavior?
Well, as a moderator, I agree with what TC has been saying. I haven’t been on the net much this week (sick and traveling). It wasn’t to the point where I would block rob’s comments, but on quick glance, it’s getting close.
As a response to this
“3)”I’m going to get flamed to a crisp for this”
Yes, yes, like saying “no offense” after something offensive, which has often annoyed me. Or, you could say it was an aknowledgement of position, an implicit apology for being provocative, an acceptance that I’ve asked for any response I get, a plea to keep things civil, and such like. If, that is, you felt like putting a more charitable spin on it, but that’s up to you.”
LOL, dude, shut up. You’re still doing it! Please to be reading of the Don’t Be That Guy post.
How is that for some “moderation”…
Really?
Well dang. I did want to reply, but I must yield to the moderator, of course.
http://www.don-lindsay-archive.org/skeptic/arguments.html
Really.
Best advice to men on feminist forums: shut up and listen, you might learn something.
Notice that last comment of Rob’s ends by linking us to “A List Of Fallacious Arguments”. CLASSY.
Ide Cyan: I did. Restrained anger kept me from saying anything about it. ><
What makes me shudder is that this – this – creature is apparently married.
And so I ask, who married, and therefore further enabled, that???
You do realize that by blaming the wife you’re doing exactly what TF did in that comment, right? He blames women for enabling male behavior and you hold his wife responsible.
You and I don’t know each other, but I’ve already bought my BACK UP shirt, and I’ll just say this:
“you hold his wife responsible.”
I do NOT hold her ENTIRELY responsible. Of course I don’t. (And I resent your implication that I do, but that’s secondary.)
However, I am not a woman who holds women who do not make an active effort to put a stop to the sexist status quo entirely blameless in any given torrent of male BS, provided they have not been physically restrained or traumatized into paralysis.
And upon further reflection:
I’ve been a fan of your writing for a long time, but you don’t know me from Eve’s housecat to get in my face like that.
If I were ever trying to amass widespread allied support for a cause I was championing — not to say that that’s what you’re doing, and Jeebus help the cause if you are — that’s certainly not how I would go about it. You don’t know the first microbe about what I’ve been through to approach me like that.
To paraphrase your friend synechdochic:
Don’t be That Girl.
I don’t know that person, I don’t know what you’re talking about, but the fact remains; you’re blaming his wife, and you’re pretty damned rude besides. I can ‘get in the face’ of anybody who blames a woman for what a guy does. You just did. I don’t have to know you to know that that’s exactly what you just did and you don’t want to face up to it.
I don’t think ginmar was “getting in anyone’s face”. She was making a rational comment based on your comment which you have clarified.
Yeah, if you call, “I don’t blame her ENTIRELY” a clarification. It pretty much proves my point.
Well, a weak clarification. ;) I’m still wondering where all of the defensiveness came from on her part.
Yeah, me too. Why is it supposedly necessary to know someone in order to have an opinion on the statements they make?
I say we just link to this: http://xkcd.com/386/
Heh. Unfortunately I was brought up by people who taught me to fight wrongness, and God knows there’s lots of it. The OP is proof of that.
I hear ya. Modern Day Paladins. ;)
This is what happens when you combine Aspberger’s Syndrome and puberty.
The real problem with these guys is that they HAVEN’T ever been kicked in the balls– they never played sports, never got in a fight, never wrestled with a dog, never had the experience of FEELING the danger that mammals can present when you violate their personal space.
Maybe someone needs to create a FPBG game– in which you get shit beat out of you if you touch another character.