July 13th, 2008
by
Yonmei
Not a reader of Megan McArdle, but Explaining science fiction to women was linked via a blogpost on the gendering of literature. A fanboy asks the question (because Megan is “every tech boy’s dream come true” as she likes “Battlestar Galactica, Dr. Who, and several other Sci-Fi shows”): “Can you, perchance, teach my wife the allure of such things? I have to watch BSG when she’s not home. Let us not even speak of attempting to watch the Good Doctor.”
It’s not just the presumption that “SF is for boys” and that girls can be “eased into it” only by being promised that it’s “a fairy tale–only a fairy tale with science instead of magic”. (Yeah, because us girls can’t be doing with that boys-only science stuff.) Or presenting Doctor Who as something that has to be “worked up to”. And “Do not, under any circumstances, unveil Sliders until you’re sure she can handle it. Same with movies: Gattica before Blade Runner. Graphic novels: Sandman, not V for Vendetta.”
Some of the comments in the discussion thread that follows are relatively sensible, but mostly… oh god. If this fanboy’s wife liked reading science-fiction, and couldn’t stand trashy TV sci-fi, I don’t suppose he’d be any happier.
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Yonmei at
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Filed under geek sexism | Comments (14)
Funny thing, all the Doctor Who fans I know (myself included) are female, along with most of the Battlestar Galactica fans. Actually, most of the scifi fans I know are women. Hm…
Nrrrrg. My response is here, but basically, I’ve been the half of a relationship who loves scifi, and guess what? There isn’t always a latent love of lasers, and (aside from stupid gender assumptions) you can’t actually trick or force your significant other into liking what you like, and you probably shouldn’t try. It’ll all end in tears (or at least, anger and frustration).
Oh that’s so annoying. Didn’t someone make a bingo card a while back to make fun of this whole genre of “How can I make my girlfriend love comic books?” article?
“If this fanboy’s wife liked reading science-fiction, and couldn’t stand trashy TV sci-fi, I don’t suppose he’d be any happier.”
As the “fanboy” in question, I never said I wasn’t happy and wouldn’t mind at all if she read SF books. However, I think you have missed the point, which is that watching SF on TV is something done together, whereas reading a book isn’t.
And really, the outrage about generalization and “gendering” of literature is beyond silly. I never wanted to trick or force anyone.
Truly, just lighten up.
kevdog – i guess the issue is, why does it bother you that you have to watch battlestar gallactica alone and do you think it has something to do with her womanhood? i watch most things alone, because my partner refuses to watch doctor who or ugly betty. he says he can’t get into it. what is anyone supposed to do when their partner doesn’t like what they do? and my partner totally -likes- sci fi, he just doesn’t like all the shows i do. but that said, i won’t watch music documentaries. we survive.
-girl al.
“i guess the issue is, why does it bother you that you have to watch battlestar gallactica alone and do you think it has something to do with her womanhood?”
For the first point: it would be nice, that’s all. It’s not necessary, it isn’t required to save my marriage (which doesn’t need it). I would like it if she watched these things with me on occasion. I didn’t realize this was a problem.
As to the second: the central problem with the anger here is that people are conflating “Most women don’t care for SF” (a statistic) with “No women care for SF” (a pejorative).
So no, it doesn’t have anything to do with womanhood in general and a lot to do with the woman in question.
Back at the original post, Yonmei had the unmitigated temerity to suggest that the problem was that I don’t take an interest in the things that my wife likes. I think it would be hard to find a more asinine response to a very, very, vanilla request. God forbid I should ask a woman about what interests her in SF so that I might be able to show my wife the same thing.
KevDog. You need to check your privilege. How often do you think we get men telling us “I take issue with your anger.” or “Lighten up.” Step back. Take a deep breath. And then re-read Yonmei’s post again. A lot of what she’s written is aimed at people in general, and the McArdle piece, who try to characterize SF/F as something men need to get women into and that we couldn’t possibly appreciate Space ships! Robots! And men in tights!
Liz: They made a comics bingo card at girl-wonder.org. http://girl-wonder.org/girlsreadcomics/?cat=22 Definitely one of my favorite bingo cards. :)
[...] she’s every nerd’s dream girl because she actually likes Science Fiction, which got the gender wars rolling, and provoked discussion of girls & SF. Poor Megan has had to respond [...]
Please explain the comment to me then, back on Megan’s blog (which is what I was referring to above):
“Liking science-fiction is a minority interest.
It’s not a “girl thing” and it’s not a “guy thing”. It’s something that some people really like, and a lot of people don’t.
If KevDog’s girlfriend doesn’t like science-fiction, or to be clear, doesn’t like the kind of science-fiction KevDog likes, well, she doesn’t: if it’s important to him that they share interests, maybe he should try finding out what she likes and take an interest in that?”
This is insulting, overgeneralized, and reeks of the very stereotyping those on this blog claim to decry. “If only this MAN was interested in the things his wife was, all would be right with the world.”
Please, take a shot at defending it. I’m interested.
Also, there is nothing in Megan’s piece which comes remotely close to saying this:
“A lot of what she’s written is aimed at people in general, and the McArdle piece, who try to characterize SF/F as something men need to get women into and that we couldn’t possibly appreciate Space ships!”
That is the bias of people who are looking to take offense, not an honest reading. So, yes, I take issue with your anger and think lightening up is in order (and it doesn’t matter whether I am a man or not when I say it). There is nothing at all wrong with that.
KevDog -
God forbid I should ask a woman about what interests her in SF so that I might be able to show my wife the same thing.
That’s kind of the problem right there. Women have taste in all things, including scifi, that’s just as varied as men’s; what makes you think that because one woman happens to like it, your wife would as well? Presumably you know her better than a bunch of strangers on the internet, so shouldn’t you already be the best judge of what shows would be a good way to interest her in the genre?
God forbid I should ask a woman about what interests her in SF so that I might be able to show my wife the same thing.
Who said you couldn’t do that? It’s pretty damned pointless, that’s all, KevDog.
What makes you think that Megan McArdle and your wife are so similar that if McArdle can explain to you what she likes about SF, you will be able to explain to your wife why she should like SF?
If you take the time to figure out what your wife likes to watch on TV and why she likes to watch it, you might then find stuff that you can both watch together. It might not be Battlestar Galactica – I’ve been an SF fan for 30 years, and I’ve never watched a single episode of that or wanted to – but you’d probably do better that way than assuming girls like SF for special unique girl-reasons so you need to ask a girl SF fan what she likes about SF in order to interest your wife in the specific TV series you like.
“That is the bias of people who are looking to take offense, not an honest reading. So, yes, I take issue with your anger and think lightening up is in order (and it doesn’t matter whether I am a man or not when I say it). There is nothing at all wrong with that.”
Not an honest reading? Wow. Go ahead and take issue with our anger (Heck, I’m not even angry.) I’m not afraid to piss off a few men here and there when I’m presenting a differing opinion. I still stand by my statement that I made an “honest reading” of McArdle’s post and that she feeds into the same stereotypes that come up again and again about (geek) women and SF/F, comics, etc.
Just want to toss in here that I can’t imagine sharing my life with someone who had no interest in science fiction. It’s too much a central part of me.
So I can’t equate this to getting a partner interested in a hobby. Like, biking or antiquing. For a hobby you enjoy, you may be able to find ways for your partner to share it with you without being so fanatical about it as you are. On the other hand, if you can’t interest your partner at all in your hobby, you can live with that. It’s something to do by yourself or with friends.
But for something as vital (to me) as science fiction and fantasy, this would be a serious relationship breaker. The person would have to be really cool and we’d have to really hit it off for me to even try to interest them in science fiction. Because my gut feeling is that it’d be a lost cause. They’d never be as into it as I am, and it’d be a constant source of conflict.
So when people ask this, they frequently get responses trying to be helpful. But there’s a disconnect. Because I think the answers are frequently trying to provide ways to convert someone into a science fiction fan. And that’s really hard to do if they’re already an adult.
So if you’re really serious about turning your partner on to science fiction, I think you have to be aware that it’ll only ever be something they do because you like it and they don’t find it all that terrible.
They may go to sf movies with you, or sit down and watch a show that they find something worthwhile in. But.. don’t expect them to suddenly want to read all your science fiction books, to master Klingon, and to help design your Xena and Gabrielle costumes for the local con.
It ain’t gonna happen.
I share my life with someone who doesn’t care for sf/f in any form. He’s plenty techie in all sorts of electronic areas, not to mention in the areas that are his most important interests / professions. We share so much of those other passions, as well as profesisonal partnership. Not any problem at all.
What I can’t imagine is sharing my life with someone who doesn’t share my political perspective, and yet I know successful couples who do that very thing. But I couldn’t. Just as I couldn’t share my life with someone who is a fundamentalist religious sort. But other people do.
Love, C.